I clearly said “prefer,” so I how is it that I am violating what I said here?

You are ignoring the nearly identical themes of estranged father and son, in the death star/borg cube at the end, using special powers to overthrow the Emperor/Borg Queen, while simultaneously: (1) Lando/Data are piloting the D/Falcon into the center of the Borg Cube/Death Star and (2) the away missions with Seven/Solo is doing a critical away mission that also culminates in parallel in the final moments as well.

They freaking copied the entire plot, not just one thing. It’s the same freaking story, man. We can quibble over minor differences, sure, but it’s like 80% identical.

I would actually be against re-casting TNG; it was more a thought exercise than a serious proposal.

I do a head-canon casting of political figures in each presidential election, too!

I agree that Kirby does have a Vulcanesque visage.

Fair enough of course.

that’s why I prefer that we don’t engage with each other

I must say, you have a singular definition of “not engaging” with Tiger2, since I count at least three responses to him in this thread, even assuming the “Abbott and Costello” reference was to someone else.

I went through [the Star Wars analogy] with you point by point weeks ago and you refused to acknowledge and obvious analogies…

I don’t recall discussing this particular point with you, specifically, on Trekmovie. Forgive me if I’m mis-remembering; shockingly, Star Trek, as much as I like it, isn’t the entirety of my life.

On the Reddit thread you cited, I’d hardly call it “massive”; it’s all of seven posts. Setting that aside, the sole complaint (judging from a meme) is that the Enterprise-D did a lateral run alongside, or inside, the Borg cube, much as Luke did alongside the Death Star.

With all due respect, that’s quite small potatoes. For one thing, it was, even if a finale, still one scene in one episode out of ten. For another, I can think of any number of other Star Trek episodes that had similar scenes: “Relics” in TNG, most memorably, but also INSURRECTON and “The Pegasus” and “Zero Hour.” No doubt there are others; these are simply top-of-mind examples.

Of course, I don’t doubt that Star Wars — and really, it’s the original movie more than RETURN OF THE JEDI, but set that aside — inspired some of these kinds of special effects, both in Star Trek and other works, such as TOP GUN 2, which I mentioned above.

Still, a scene where “small vessels stage a lateral attack against a fortress” means that the entire production is a “blatant rip-off” of Star Wars is a wild exaggeration.

You might as well say that STARGATE is a “blatant rip-off’ of Star Trek because the former used the concept of “beaming” in later seasons. Or for that matter, you might as well say that HENRY V is a “blatant rip-off” of the Iliad because they both feature besieged fortresses. Few of Shakespeare’s plays were entirely original.

No serious literary scholar is ever going to claim that a work stands entirely alone. Even postmodernists who seek to deconstruct the canon will grudgingly concede that an understanding of Shakespeare is necessary to analyze works omitted from the canon.

Frankly, the *real* complaint ought to be that RETURN OF THE JEDI’s climax was a near-duplicate of that of STAR WARS, with Ewoks thrown in. There have really only been a couple of good Star Wars movies out of the many we’ve seen. Oddly enough, aside from A NEW HOPE, they mostly seem to be the second movie in each trilogy. But that’s another discussion.

An interesting idea — perhaps they should create a new award for “best regular cast.”

Agreed that they all gave career best performances, including Spiner, who was basically playing a new character.

😂

LOL that just shows what an oldies board this place really is…and sadly why I got the reference right away. ;)

But this actually explains why you didn’t think it was about you if you had no clue what was even being referenced lol. This is pretty funny.

Oh one last thing and then I’ll move on but I had to look up the names Abbot and Costello. 🤣

Maybe heard it before somewhere but had no idea who they were until now. Internet is always here to help! 👍

It just seemed like it was the usual snarky bitterness and negativity but as said it may not have been aimed at me at all but someone else entirely so I’m good now. And yeah maybe I was right but I will assume I wasn’t and just move on. And this also means I won’t have to worry about any possible side comments in the future from him because it would only prove I was actually right lol.

I just like talking to people I can have a rational conversation with and that’s with most people here fortunately. And very true, if that’s the worst ‘insult’ someone can give me, that I get along with others too well while always trying to be positive, then that’s not really an insult lol.

It’s time to leave the silliness behind and get back to discussing Star Trek! :)

Well I used to spew more negative energy in the past when NuTeek was just dire IMO and I wanted awful characters like Adolf to die horribly every episode she waa in lol.

Now I am feeling more upbeat about things these days even if we still have one last season of Discovery to stomach through. Still hate what happened to Prodigy though.

And if the worst thing someone is saying about me now is that I’m actually being too agreeable with others and can get along with cool posters like you and Amirami I’ll happily take it! 😁

That’s a far cry of the past insults I used to get from that guy believe me lol.

Always bro! Always love talking to you and you don’t get triggered like a 12 year old. 😉

And I am sure his mother is proud of him too!

That’s all fair of course…but they were still bad and awful Star Trek.

I agree, it told people Star Trek was still viable and it could reach new people. It just didn’t really hit the big expectations they were probably hoping for ultimately and why new movie projects keep failing to get off the ground.

But as said, Trek always does better on TV. That’s its true home and always will be.

Well thankfully we are getting that more today. And I don’t have a problem they tried to make Trek for new audiences, it needs new people to survive in the future. But I think having just those movies at the time put off a lot of long term fans and there was really nothing else if they didn’t like them. Today we at least have more options even if we now have less than we did a year ago unfortunately.

“The two projects that have been announced have been in development for some time already; Section 31 and Starfleet Academy.”

Exactly! I have mentioned this myself in the past, it took a looooong time to get these two projects off the ground (and S31 was once a show ;)) and they were both being developed as far back as 2018. And it took over a year between the end of Discovery season 2 and SNW to be announced as you mentioned.

Picard ended in freaking April. I have no doubt a show will eventually happen but fans are impatient of course and wanted it yesterday. It just doesn’t work that way and they have to work out a lot of things out to make it a reality if it happens.

Of course! :)

No worries.

Cool – thanks. That’s all I’m looking for is for fans to admit it’s kind of obvious, and then for Terry to say at some point, “sure, the ROTJ inspired the ending of Picard.”.

And that would not be a negative. I just want to hear it from him, and if I see him in Vegas, I will be asking him in a polite and fun way.

Apology accepted. I really appreciate it. Thanks.

Look dude, I’m at a much better place and having a lot more fun with less stress on this site since we stopped talking to each other. Just move on, stop addressing me directly or indirectly, I’ll keep doing likewise and we’ll be just fine. Thanks

Great post!

It’s so refreshing to have somebody at least acknowledge and discuss this intelligently instead of getting all reactive and defensive and contemplating out loud that I’m a bitter an mean person in my personal life.

Thanks again!

Color me shocked. And boycotting.

Have some patience,

Strange New Worlds wasn’t announced until 14 months after season 2 of Discovery aired and it had active development in that time – all writing/development right now has been suspended due to the strike. The two projects that have been announced have been in development for some time already; Section 31 and Starfleet Academy.

All we know about Starfleet Academy is the name and a brief concept, there’s not much to go on to get people interested. The fact that some people keep loudly moaning online that it’s going to be “Star Trek 90210” just means there’s a whole bunch of middle-aged Trek fans with a 1990 reference point who that show probably isn’t being aimed at anyway.

Legacy needs some serious development work though because just a title existing isn’t actually enough to generate a TV show, and right now where we left off it’s just Captain Seven and the Ship of Nepo Babies. That’s all we got.

Sure, I see some parallels with ROTJ. Im sure he pulled inspiration from many sources.

I don’t know if it was an influence or not. And if it was, I don’t know if it was a conscious idea or not. You’ll have to ask Terry.

Writers sometimes tell a story and end up with the same kind of story that others have already told and don’t realize it. Or subconsciously have others influence their creativity without realizing it.

Is Trelane the same thing as Q? Is TMP an extended telling of the Changeling? Did Davy Perez rip off Aliens in All those who wander? Did Asimov intend for Fahrenheit 451 to be about censorship?

So, I think he had many influences but for me, it doesn’t take away the emotional ending to this cast. I’m not taken out of the story. It was fun to recapture old school trek.

LLAP!

Not much. The noms are out and the only one I saw was for PIC for prosthetic makeup. As usual, ST gets no Emmy love. Andor got quite a few, BTW, including one for Best Drama Series.

Fingers crossed.

Awww, it’s still early. Give it time.

I wish. I really do. But I was reading EW the other day. Granted they were just predictions but I didn’t see any Trek there.

Frakes in particular def deserves one for this season. He really brought it. IMO he carries this season more than anyone.

:) Thanks!

:) agreed

Ok… So what? Lets say the entire “Enterprise attacks the Cube” was a complete riff of RoTJ? So what? I still say ST 2009 was ANH anyways. This is 21st century hollywood man, everyone copies everyone! A better word might be inpires. I get the Enterprise is not an X-wing or even the Millenium Falcun. But then again if that were an issue we might as well erase every space battle in DS9 too. But lest we forget, Star Trek came first and it is WIDELY known that SW was influenced by ST.

Yeah totally agree with this! They all did a phenomenal job and a great reminder why they are still so popular as characters to the fanbase 35 years later!

I hope TPTB see that because we really need him now more than ever.

Yes and for the record Kelvin did it’s job. I don’t think the Discovery era would have happened if Kelvin hadn’t re-ignited Trek. On paper there was nothing wrong with Kelvin per se. Its STID that wrecked everything in my book. Had they gone in a different direction with the second move I might have been totally cool with it.

Dude I am so sorry. I don’t know why I jumped to the conclusion you were trying to insult me or another poster since there are plenty of other guys here you could be talking about lol. But I think I’m the one in the wrong here and I shouldn’t attacked you, OK? I don’t know why I assumed you were talking about me at all. I overreacted. So wanted to clear that up and I shouldn’t have called you obsessive. To be fair to you you haven’t bothered me in ages and no idea why you would now?

Again, I hope you accept my apology and we can go on happily ignoring each other. ;)

LOL! It’s obvious you are a motivational speaker in real life!

Well don’t beat yourself up too much you could still be right! 😁

But it’s always better to side with caution and give everyone the benefit of the doubt in cases like this. He probably wasn’t referring to anyone here specifically.

Wait…when did I become so reasonable??? 🤣🤣🤣

Anyway, let’s focus on what matters and to tell Kurtzman to GIVE US THE LEGACY SHOW YOU WORTHLESS HACK OR WE WILL BURN YOUR CAR OR FORCE YOU TO WATCH DISCOVERY!!!!

See what happens when you focus solely on putting positive energy out into the universe? 😀

Absolutely right. Shouldn’t have jumped to conclusions it had anything to do with you which it probably didn’t. Now I feel bad lol. And I will apologize to Upperdecks as well for making rash assumptions. Maybe it wasn’t about me at all either and I shouldn’t have jumped on him without asking him first, so that’s on me. I don’t like to feel this paranoid lol,I just want to completely be left alone, that’s all. Again I can admit I’m wrong and I probably am in this case. And he hasn’t bothered me in months so it doesn’t sense to do it now. So apologies Upperdecks, you don’t have to respond, just keep ignoring each other. ;)

And yeah, I should be putting my energy here on something positive like pushing for the Legacy show!!! And which I’m pretty convinced we’re getting anyway due to all the demand and huge success of Picard….assuming P+ doesn’t fold like UPN did in a few years. ;)

Yes, it’s refreshing to watch something made for the star trek audience instead of non-starter vanity projects made by a random producer who has no idea what Star Trek is or how to add to it.

But when are they going to stop putting out these non-starter spin off vanity projects and instead make star trek for the audience?

Legacy is there for the taking but instead we’re going to be given some teenage star trek academy show literally no one has any interest in beyond the production.

All that money down the toilet and they wonder why no one is subscribing.

Ah no worries man. I was like how did I suddenly get involved in this??? 🤣

And I know you weren’t trying to put me in the middle. It’s hard to know what some people mean at times on message hoards.

This has actually been a fun thread to post in, so just focus on that. And all your energy should be focused on the Legacy show!!!

And yeah Amirami is awesome! 😁

I’m sure they will release a 4k boxset of Picard S1-3 eventually along with Discovery S1-5 as there is great demand for a 4K release for both shows.

Well I assumed he was talking about you as well, but maybe not and he was inferring to someone else. I really don’t know or care man, I just want to talk about Star Trek lol. So maybe I’m completely off base on this which I can admit and it’s not about you at all. So sorry I insinuated and included you in my middle school spat, wasn’t trying to put you or anyone else in the middle. Just completely ignore it please. I shouldn’t be jumping to conclusions.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

And yeah Amirami is awesome! :)

I haven’t seen the show yet but it seems to be more mixed.

Hopefully there’s more recognition with Emmy noms.

Ah I see thanks!

I know it’s supposed to be a good movie just never watched. Will get around to it at some point.

Couldn’t happen to better shows! Loved then both (but only season 3 for Picard).

Yep totally worth it man! 👍

Are you talking about me? I feel like I’m missing something lol. Why is talking to people you agree with a bad thing?

Me and Amirami are best friends on Trekcre and here. Also get along well and we don’t always agree on everything either(but probably most). But we don’t get triggered and stalk someone because they have a different opinion.

I get along with others here too. Because it’s just entertainment we’re discussing.

But this is more proof it’s better to be on boards where you can just block people and go on with life. 😎

Agreed.

I will say this, the Kelvin movies had a different mandate, they were trying to make Star Trek for the masses and people who generally shunned it off as too nerdy or ‘talkie’. Picard was meant to be more back to basics and grab the original fans whose been watching since the 60s up until now. And they didn’t have a $150 million budget so there wasn’t the stress to round up everybody and your grandma to watch it.

And Picard had plenty of action, it just wasn’t the focus until the last few episodes. But it’s also why Trek just does better on TV because it can be pure Trek. The movies has always had a harder time trying to please two different audiences and it’s probably only done that a few times successfully.

All that said, please keep Abrams far away from making anymore Trek. Produce, fine but not direct and certainly not write lol. At least get someone who genuinely want to get it right even if they never watched it much themselves.

Completely agree. And I think Matalas gets it BECAUSE he was working with people like Coto by the end of Enterprise. And he was smart to bring back people like the Okudas and Doung Drexler and you really felt like you were back in that era. So hopefully we’ll get more in the future assuming Paramount+ doesn’t implode in the next two years lol.

Agreed. It wasn’t perfect but this is the kind of things fans wanted in the first season of the show and I think it hit better than they probably expected, especially after the first two seasons were so mixed.

I really want more 25th century Star Trek. I like SNW, it’s fun, but it’s not a lot of substance. Again, that’s fine and I’m enjoying it for what it is, but I want something with a little more weight to what we got with TNG and DS9 back in the day. And Picard season 3 was kind of in the middle of those IMO.

Dude she’s in it for literally 10 seconds lol. She says one line and she’s gone for the rest of the movie. I’m pretty sure her scene is somewhere on YouTube.

It’s a good movie though. If you like the other Ryan movies you will probably like this one. It’s a bit different, less actiony but good.

OK fine. Take it easy. I wish I saw this one first lol. I just want to be left alone. But if that’s what you were doing, OK man.

Weirdo look around. Everyone else is just having a normal conversation. You’re the one bitter and telling people how to feel. I’m just discussing it with people like a sane person. I’m not the one fighting with anyone here, YOU ARE!!!! So leave me alone. You’re so weird.

They are the current two best Star Trek shows (well, not all of PIC, just S3) since 2005. Properly written and you can tell the people involved actually love Trek. Long live 24th/25th century era Trek. Hope we see a lot more from both Team Matalas and McMahan.

Lol, he partially agreed with me.

You are not my hero for making up things I never said and for claiming victory when it’s not there. Reminds me of a certain political figure. Lol

I can see Vanessa Kirby in a future Trek role. I think she can make a good vulcan. Why do we need to reboot TNG anyway, they could create a new character for her.

No worries, but I would simply appreciate it if you would stop making these weird claims that suggest I am an angry, bitter person. Nope, I am just direct and honest about my opinions. I see others here who dance around stuff they obviously don’t like, and under the guise of being reasonable they push their weight around — instead of just coming forward with it directly and provocatively some times like I do.

Like say a fictional person here really could obviously not stand DSC, but they acted reasonable about it like they had an open mind, yet they gradually made fun the show and pushed their weight around against fans who disagreed with them, but in sort of a nice way — I mean, who are they fooling? Just say you can’t stand DSC and be out with it. Be direct, own your real views.

He is great! I’m not a fan of the show he’s nominated for but I hope in between this and the movie he has coming out? Already out? He gets to move on to better things.

Good post — the funny thing is, if more fans like you, and Terry himself simply said that great ROTJ movie significantly influenced the end of Picard S3, I’d be fine with that.

But instead, I find it very irritating though is that so many fans are deliberately (in my opinion) burying their hands in the sand and insisting this is not the case. I commend you for at least acknowledging this — THANKS!

I mean, there is nothing wrong with Terry acknowledging this, like saying, “Return of the Jedi is one of my favorite movies, and sure, that ending with the deathstar, and the father-son dynamics coming together with special powers to take down the emperor, influenced my ending for Picard.”

Yeah, Frakes killed it!

I haven’t felt superior to anything in all of my almost 60 years, so no. I just like the opportunity here to speak of Trek candidly, with kindly arguments of course, but vitriol is unnecessary, imo. You clearly have a passion for the franchise, as we all do, much appreciated. Cheers.

I’m not biting — I went through this with you point by point weeks ago and you refused to acknowledge and obvious analogies, so no, I see no need for us to repeat that back and forth where we will never agree on this.

Perhaps though for your reading enjoyment you might check out an big reddit thread titled:

Nice 40th anniversary tribute to Return of the Jedi in the Picard finale / TNG crew sendoff. :)

Additionally, you will find articles on this on the web, plus a youtube video that mashes the ROTJ score to the end of Picard S3.

This has become “a thing” that many have noticed. And it’s going to become an iconic joke as the years go by.

So sorry, dude, but this is not just me, and no, it’s not going to be going away.

I will say it right now: It was a commercial and critical hit! So please stop misstating my opinion as I have never said it wasn’t either since the season wrapped up.

I just don’t agree that it was good Star Trek. Good Space Opera with Zombies and a fan tribute to ROTJ, OK, I’ll buy that.

If you disagree with me on stuff, fine, but please don’t make up stuff and attribute false views to me. Because making shit up — that’s sad! :-)

You’re my hero Kevin because you’ve articulated it better than I could have done.

Why do you find my post so threatening? And please read it again — what is there in my post that you object to me saying? All I did was to suggest watching something else and comparing it to Pic S3, and that they “may” change their mind. What’s your issue?

I recommend that you strive to be more confident in your own opinions and stop worrying about me. :-)

And there you go again, finding someone who is buying into your “piling on” against me…right on schedule.

Do I have provocative opinions that are sometimes negative? Yes, I plead guilty.

You know what I don’t do though. I don’t pretend like I am having a reasonable discussion when I’m really trying to push my weight around. That’s the difference between us, and that’s why I prefer that we don’t engage with each other, and would request that you stop talking to others about me given you had a tantrum several months ago when I did that.

Terry is a fan of science fiction. And I’m sure a lot what made past films great were in his mind, but I don’t believe he ripped off Star Wars. I don’t know his process, but I do believe he had what was best for the characters in mind. Writers ask the audience to accept a certain number of “buy-ins.” Yes, he had the galaxy class ship fly like an X-wing, and that was a major buy-in to sell to us. However, we got character moments that we have been waiting for since Nemesis. The acting was superb and we got a real finale that is worthy of the talented cast. It was a celebration of this cast and everything we love about the old days. So, I can live with a highly maneuverable D and other buy-ins because he understands these characters and why we love them. He gets it.

Nah, but don’t let me get in your way of feeling superior, dude, lol.

It was self-deprecating humor directed at myself and directed to anybody here who agrees with anybody else all the time on stuff — No one in particular

Yep. He can’t come to terms it was a commercial and critical hit. He’ll probably never accept it. Sad.

The irony is me and you have gotten along for years here, have not had a single disagreement and for some reason he doesn’t single us out and raze us over it? But I realize why now because me and the other guy are both happen to be ignoring him and that’s probably where the bitterness is coming from. I’m going to make this clear, I have NOTHING to do with whatever issues they have and it sounds like completely different issue anyway and on another site completely. I talk to the other poster like I talk to you, to discuss STAR TREK which I do 99.9% of the time. The fact II get along and agree with him (like I do practically everyone else here as this board shows) but bothers him so much he has to constantly bring it up in his posts is just beyond weird and obsessive.

He wants to dwell in the negativity all the time and feel bitter because people have the nerve to have different tastes than him, then have at it. Just leave me out of it PLEASE! I don’t care.

The rest of us just want to discuss Star Trek like rational people. Again, this board makes that obviously clear.

…after hearing of M. Coto’s passing and remembering fondly of M. Piller, it is gratifying to see Matalas being recognized. He ‘gets it ‘ like they did.

I loved having Forbes back as Ro and so happy ahe got nominated as well! 😀

Matalas is a dye in the wool Trekkie. Every time he gave an interview about season 3 I hung on to every word. This was a passion project the way he pushed so hard to make it happen.

He wanted those characters and universe to feel as true to each other as they could. It’s not like overrated hacks like JJ Abrams who tried to turn Star Trek into a big videogame for sugar filled teenagers and had so little regard for the franchise he couldn’t even be bothered to get the nationality of one of Trek’s biggest iconic villains right…a villain most fans didn’t even want to see again. And then to add to insult crapped over TWOK with forced fan service that never remotely felt earned.

Matalas gets the props he does because he made sure to get the characters right first who have all grown and changed in the last 20 years while creating a story with an old adversary that connected personally to them all.

Season 3 of Picard felt like a show for actual adults with real drama, relationships and stakes. That’s why it succeeded.

That guy has a ton of work going, and he’s great in all of it. His Dad must be proud.

I am totally looking forward to receiving S3 on dvd. I know I can watch it on P+ whenever I want, but this last season I want in my collection.

Upper-decks just appears to be a pretty bitter person, and this venue is one of the outlets. Mad…all the time. Not our fault (or concern). Negative-negative. Just because everyone’s view of Trek doesn’t align, it’s a problem. Lots of wasted energy, there.

Why do you keep trying to convince people who clearly like it, Not to like it? Wtf, relax. It has fans, like me.

Lol!

Bro, it took me 10 minutes to figure out what HfRO was. 😂

And I’ve never seen it so I can’t comment at all. Did she have a decent role in it at least?

Oddly I’ve seen all the other Jack Ryan movies except the Chris Pine one but heard it sucked.

Just because they had to recast Alex Baldwin that didn’t mean Cathy Ryan had to change too. After all, James Earl Jones stayed put for continuity. And we all know McFadden is believable as a doctor!

I don’t mind the Jack Ryan series, John Krasinski is a likable actor, but it’s not exactly prestige TV and often veers more into action heroics for its lead character than the movies did, even with Harrison Ford throwing punches in the jungle and on a speeding motorboat.

THe greatest thing about it was seeing his true comittment and passion for the project.

He was a big name at the time so I can see why they didn’t.

Funny enough, they didn’t recast James Earl Jones. :)

Well, to answer my own question, I forgot she had a guest role in season 5.

You keep repeating the criticism that the second half of Picard S3 somehow parrots Return of the Jedi, but you don’t give any specifics. How about giving us some examples?

Beyond the Enterprise doing a lateral run alongside the Borg ship, I don’t see much similarity. And that kind of combat tactic isn’t exactly unique to Star Wars; TOP GUN 2 did something similar.

If your beef is that both are stories about long-lost fathers and sons, well, that’s a theme at least as old as Homer (see Odysseus and Telemachus). The father-son theme is deeply rooted in human culture and literature. One of my favorite novels is Naguib Mahfouz’ PALACE WALK; that too is all about Sayyid Ahmad and his sons.

To be sure, the second half of S3 had its faults, but I struggle to see how “it’s derivative of Star Wars” is one of them.

It would be great if Lower Decks won! But I’m going to be honest, I never would’ve thought a show like this would even be nominated for anything lol. And I love the show but I’m surprised it even gets nominated at all. I never really thought it would win as best animated series (but I don’t watch enough of any of them to know).

But if it did win. be really cool!

I actually saw her in an interview on YouTube. It’s a podcast (but what isn’t these days) and called Inside of Me? I think’s the name but she mentioned her role in HFRO and said she was going to have a bigger role in the next movie but then Alec Baldwin quit and they decided to recast most of the characters when Ford stepped in.

Hollywood is a tough business.