Sure, ok. But remember in TNG’s “Lower Decks” one of the young ensigns stated that Riker was Canadian, though he’s actually from Alaska. Note the clear borders drawn here. But hey, that’s one line.

Again you can be right. We’ll see. I just don’t know if they want to go that far with it but you’re right, nothing stops them now either.

I I think there is truth to that. But even that has limits. Chekov recognizing Khan is forgivable because the movie is so good. But even if SNW was actually good (it’s not) there just is no way to justify their Gorn usage. Unless they finally admit this is a reboot. Which they all but did without using the word “reboot” in the explanation in the above article.

I think that changes depending on what the creators need it to be.

But as a viewer as far as I’m concerned if a production makes a change in the timeline just so they can do something with their Trek show that doesn’t really fit with what Trek has done, that’s just a reboot. Period.

I don’t think that was the intention. To let old Trek die. I think they just felt they wanted a movie reboot. That’s all. There was nothing preventing a continuation with the prime for another feature or TV show.

I am getting the “let’s overwrite old Trek and let it die” vibe from the people making Trek now, though. More than that… By using their timey-whimey gobletygook it turns their alternative reality vision of Trek into the prime version. At least to them.

Since they pretty much admitted this is now an alternative time line, like the KU (cough *reboot*) they have essentially completely obliterated all of TOS and by extension everything that came after. Even TNG. No way can Arena still have happened. It just can’t. Their own explanation says it can’t. They are now free to run stories from TOS they way THEY feel they should be done.

I still stick to my idea that this was their way to completely free themselves from canon. All this did was make me wish they just called everything they did their own new rebooted Trek universe. Because that is what it is. The only thing left is for the people associated with creating this stuff to come out and outright say it.

I would argue that they tried to reboot Star Trek. At the time, the intention was that it would be a reset for Star Trek altogether and they could let old Trek die. It didn’t work. (Obviously, because we’re here.) So much so, that now we’re back in the Prime Universe (not asking for a debate on that) and that’s just an alternate reality we may or may not visit again. And, sure… a strong case could be made that “nu-Trek” is a reboot. Which is exactly my whole point. You can choose to sit here getting lost in the weeds of debate over ever nuanced detail (totally an acceptable choice), or you can accept that sometimes it doesn’t all perfectly line up and just enjoy the ride of a well-made and very entertaining show. (BTW… if you put this much scrutiny on “old-Trek,” you’d never make it past TOS without throwing your hands in the air.)

When they say it’s a time line change but they alter characters what they really mean is it’s a reboot but they don’t want to call it a reboot for some reason.

I can’t argue with that.

That’s a great point and the other irony. While it’s true we do become more enlighten overall after the killing of hundreds of millions of people in two more big wars, but the Eugenics War only proved how inward thinking and fear mongering we still were. Starfleet not only discriminated against human genetic engineering but all genetic engineering by other alien cultures like Chin-Riley’s species. And even though they had showed that they were peaceful and mainly used it just to adapt to other environments for their own survival and not to conquer other planets with it. And this mentality kept up through the entire existence of the Federation and Starfleet. If it wasn’t for Prodigy, its policy may have still been the same through the 25th century as well.

But yet this is something Goldsman wants to pretend made humanity a better society in the end. You can’t make this stuff up. Well you can. but just badly it seems. ;)

As usual, you say things waaaay harsher than me lol, but I generally agree. And especially since all he did was form two different timelines basically so everything that happens in TOS STILL happens based on how they set it up. But sure, that can definitely be debated.

I hear you man!

I actually pointed this out in another post myself like the fact they already had a manned mission to Saturn by the early 21st century. (Tomorrow is Yesterday)

Another reason why this is pretty pointless.

Exactly! How do you remember a timeline if it’s already been erased IN YOUR TIME? And something that already happened centuries ago now, regardless if she came from the 23rd century or the 27th since we have no idea when she came from. But since she said she didn’t recognize Kirk until later, she’s probably came from a later century than them.

Now I’m guessing the writers who wrote it probably wasn’t thinking that hard about it and just wanted to acknowledge that time has shifted and that was really the only way to do it. But Goldsman and everyone working on Trek today should know how fandom works and that every little word and line is scrutinized to the tenth power. I remember after the 09 movie came out and was on IMDB and there was a thread with hundreds of posts over Uhura’s ‘alternate reality’ line and did it mean alternate timeline or universe or both? Yeah we think about this stuff way more than we should lol.

But ironically the only other story I can remember where someone showed up in an already altered timeline and was unaware of the changes is Spock in the first Kelvin movie. So yeah, this is pointing in the exact same direction and it’s just two different timelines and nothing has actually been erased in the Prime timeline.

“That’s yet another thing. I don’t recall hearing over the years about Trek fans annoyed the Eugenics wars never happened. If anything it’s just a bit of a laugh. But seems to me fans accept Trek history as different from reality. Because we know it’s fiction.”

Never once have I heard this either. Even more proof, we been talking about Augments and Khan since 2013 thanks to STID, Picard season 2 and now this show and the actual date of the war rarely comes up at all. With regards to Picard, if anything people were legitimately upset with Matalas answer when he said that the Eugenics War probably happened later and that Spock got the time mixed up.

So most fans didn’t care and had no problem with keeping it in the 90s. And it probably has to do with the fact in real time, it’s now been over 30 years lol. That’s a loooooong time. People have came to the realization that yeah, Star Trek isn’t real so it didn’t matter anyway.

As I said I wouldn’t be shocked if they didn’t, especially since they were already changing things anyway. I guess the question is how FAR will they go? I stated in the past the way they are treating canon now is basically stick to the broad strokes of what we know in TOS like ultimately Spock will still be with T’Pring, Kirk will still run into the Gorn later, etc. But now I wonder will they just totally ignore whatever they want and have Kirk and Pike fight the Gorn together as an example. I mentioned this in my OP they basically CAN do that now. But I suspect they will still keep to the broad strokes of things but we’ll see. I think the Gorn episode this season will give us a big heads up if really goes much bigger.

Well it should. 😉

Had nothing going on until the evening. It was really the first large batch of free time I had all weekend. And this article really got me going, too.

here’s my big question, whats the difference between an alternate timeline and the timeline being changed? the kelvin movies were an ‘alternate timeline’ yet in other shows the timeline ‘is changed’ and not considered an alternate timeline. i know its just a TV show, but is there any rhyme or reason in distinguishing between the two? other than for dramatic / writing reasons

I would argue that timelines are more convoluted than just saying “we are restarting this our own way”. Different versions of the characters actually make more sense as a reboot than an alternative time line. In that case it still makes sense characters be who they are. In a reboot, writers are free to change a character trait here or there for whatever reason they like. That’s less believable with alternative timelines. When they say it’s a time line change but they alter characters what they really mean is it’s a reboot but they don’t want to call it a reboot for some reason.

Well the 4th of July must have been a really crapfest then at the ML31 household given you had over 40 negative posts on SNW in a single day…lol

I’m just having fun with you…no worries. :-)

There are more things in TOS that indicate it’s not actually supposed to be our future than I remember (thanks, Christopher L. Bennett.)

I think the difference is, with timelines, the writers leave themselves an easy-to-understand mechanism to bring the different versions of the characters and setting together. With a true reboot, there’s no narrative or fictional connection between the two settings. It’s more of a bold statement, which is partly why they shy away from it.

Some of us don’t have time to peruse & comment on every article. I have things in my life beyond this board. So I pick & choose which articles to read and comment on. Would I have liked to catch this article earlier? Sure. Would I trade in the events over the weekend to do so? Absolutely not.

I’ve heard the theory for over a year now that Secret Hideout would very much like to “overwrite” TOS with their version. I had a difficult time buying that then. After all that’s happened culminating with that “Tomorrow…” episode I can actually start to think the idea might have merit.

In the sense that in reality 15 years later new car models come out, fashions change, new architecture appears… That’s not a “visual reboot”. That’s called the passage of time.

By claiming all the time changes they have come as close as one can get to admitting this is a reboot/alternate reality as one can get without actually admitting it’s a reboot/alternate reality. At least the KU films had the balls to full on admit that is what they were doing. These weasels can’t even bring themselves to say it.

We may not hear the Beastie Boys but I’d wager dollars to doughnuts Kurtzman probably really wants too…

They can’t though, they’re obsessed with messing with the TOS era. Instead of just exploring a new time. Say what you will about Discovery, they were right to move to the 32nd Century.

Millions died in the War on Terror and Iraq, dippy. Which could be an indirect result/followed on from the clandestine Eugenics War.

Typical UpperDecks-NormalNecks, bootlicking apologist for the severely lacking Kurtzman era. Come on, is that really you, Akiva? Be honest!

Right, I get that. LD exists partially (mostly?) as a comedy reference to the franchise itself. That’s all well and good. It’s either your thing or it’s not.

What I mean is, within that essential fictional reality that even LD is (sometimes) outside of, no one seems to be concerned that people on Earth have known about Captain Kirk of the USS Enterprise since the mid-1960s.

I realize that it’s very likely some future writer will try to fix this with some time travel storyline, where agents from the future go back and prevent the Trek franchise from being created. Looking forward to that one…

Same man…same.

But SNW isn’t in a different universe. But the idea is definitely similar.

But if Pike starts blasting Beastie Boys off duty, we’re in trouble. 🤣

Actually I was thinking about this today and your theory could be right. Because didn’t the Romulan say she went to 1992 to kill Khan but he wasn’t around until later?

Just stick with me now, but if history was already changed BEFORE she got there, so how would she remember it if the timeline was already changed?? Doesn’t that suggest she just came from the original timeline then? So there are two timelines now (at least). Maybe I’m just remembering it wrong but if true then maybe the Prime timeline doesn’t get erased and everything that happened in TOS was just like before.

So TOS stays in the original with the other old shows but SNW veers off into a new one thanks to TCW.

Works for me! 🙂👍

Wasn’t it really TMP first before TNG? That movie seriously put me to sleep. 🥱

I didn’t start watching Trek until after Roddenberry died and not really a TOS fan. TNG is my favorite show but after Michael Piller took it over in third season.

So never cared about Roddenberry’s vision. And he started to sound like a nutty zealot over it…although now I’m understanding why some people treat this show like a religion and not just a TV show.

I guess maybe they mean a visual reboot? That’s certainly true at least.

What I don’t understand is how is just winning another war makes us better? I get it’s a specific war for Star Trek but it’s just another war.

And then add this war didn’t make humans ‘better’ but actually bigots because they discriminated against Augments for literally 400 years lol. It wasn’t until Janeway pushed to get Dal accepted (and no loopholes like Una) so how this INSPIRING???

If you have to keep anything relevant it would be First Contact with the Vulcans. That is positive and what inspired humanity to actually boldly go into space and seek out new life..you know the event that made Star Trek today? Not fighting another war with Augment Hitlers. 🙄

Goldsman is such a hack.

It’s unfortunate that this and all your other comments today are rather late and won’t be seen by many — most everyone’s moved on to the newer articles now, with the discussion pretty much wrapped up.

I’m on to the new articles now as well…

I honestly don’t think they have any intent to even try to stick within the rules. They didn’t before. Why would that change? And now they have this explanation that pretty much allows them to do anything they damn well want and still consider what they are doing “prime” or canonical. I promise, they will pick up on some small thing that happened on one TOS episode (and pat themselves on the back for noticing it foolishly thinking it will give them standing among the fans) and decide to run with it to the point that it ignores 20 other things in the Trek universe. But it is OK because… Time line changes or other.

Well said bro! 👍

He wants the show to feel like our own world but then make the Europa mission just shows what a true hypocritical hack he is. 🙄

I’m cool with the change but yeah this explanation is just silly. I been watching Trek since 1998. and don’t think I ever watched Space Seed until a few years later. I remember watching it and thought Khan had a cool backstory and not remotely caring that the war happened when I was still in high school because it’s a fake story on a TV show for bleep sake.

I didn’t fall in love with Star Trek because of it’s fake history. I fell in love with it because of its great characters, cool aliens and smart stories (that excludes Threshold of course…still my worst episode in Trek). I never cared it was close to the real world or not.

You have to be an old hardcore nerd to let something like this bother you for 30 years. 😅

Star Trek is just a TV show. None of this is real.

I think its more laughable that they still used paper on TOS lol.

I like you! 😊

Every time there is a wink-wink where they’re referring to stuff outside of canon and about the franchise itself it takes me out of the ep. I find this much worse than a timeline correction.

Thanks, that was exactly my point. There are so many wink-winks where you know the characters are actually referring outside of the canon and about the franchise itself.

Exactly — well said!

Which would make it a….

REBOOT!

Yeah… All true. Unfortunately there seem to be a few who think that Star Trek is real for some reason. I honestly don’t understand it.

Nope. They do not have the strength or creativity to ignore the black hole-like pull Khan seems to have on Kurtzman.

True. Eugenics wars being in 1990’s wasn’t ever a problem.

What he is doing is trying to fix HIS problem but tell everyone else it was someone else’ problem.

This guy is a real piece of work.

Yep. That.

I liked your post. Thanks. Gave me a chuckle. And it makes a ton of sense, too.

OK.

The TCW appeared on Enterprise ONLY because the UPN execs wanted some kind of futuristic element on the show. They were not completely on board with going to 100 years before Kirk. The creators didn’t want to do any of that at all. So they adapted an idea for a completely separate TV show one had come up with and altered it to fit with the Enterprise setting. They weren’t big on it and there weren’t many episodes that dealt with it as a result. So you are dead wrong there.

Also, TOS wasn’t “rebooted” for the features at all. Not sure where you got that from. Altering the Klingon look doesn’t mean it’s a reboot. Changing the uniforms doesn’t mean it’s a reboot. Giving the Enterprise a refit doesn’t mean it’s a reboot. In fact absolutely nothing about the TOS features even suggests reboot.

True. This is indeed an obvious load of BS from AG. And in doing what he did is indeed the height of arrogance. Although I wouldn’t blame the article author. He’s just reporting what this sorry excuse for a producer said.

Exactly, Mike.

Yep. I think most people understand the difference between a fictional history and reality. I guess AG underestimates the fans. Or, he’s just trying to cover up his screw ups because he is incapable of admitting he made a huge mistake.

Except they have rebooted Trek already. The 3 Kelvin movies were reboots. And a very strong case can be made to say that all the nu-Trek is a reboot.

No, it doesn’t make a lick of sense and it doesn’t matter what any physicist says or thinks. The bottom line is Trek history is a fictional history. That fictional history is under no obligation to match our reality. A Trek prediction that does not come to pass in reality doesn’t invalidate Trek or make it less inspirational or any other such hogwash.

What makes most sense is AG & Co screwed up so badly with their foolish comments about how “in sync” with canon they are that they felt they needed something like this to make their show work better. And as usual, they really didn’t think it through because what they succeeded at doing was admit without admitting it that their show was a reboot. Or a new & independent time line. Which is essentially a reboot without wanting to call it a reboot.

Yes. It’s the choices the writers made. In the first season they really screwed with Trek history with the Gorn and Spcok-Chapel & such. They probably realized what they did. Now AG feels he needs to “fix” his show to make it work. Now, he can’t say HIS show was messed up. No way. He’s making the best Trek EVER! No, it has to be the rest of Trek that is wrong. So this “fixes” THEIR problems for them.

I’m sure he’s waiting to issue a huge “You’re welcome” to all the grateful fans he thinks he created.

Was it? Not seeing how….

Honestly if they are going to bring back a previous show runner my vote would be for Manny Coto. In his short time at the helm he showed he not only knows his Trek but is very reverential to the lore.

But to me, just getting this out of the hands of Secret Hideout would be considered a win.

After all his timey-whiney and ridiculous mental gymnastics he went through to try and make his square peg fit in the round hole I think we can safely say his personal ego will NEVER allow him to admit this an alternate reality. Let alone a reboot.

I don’t know… But it certainly does rival the Lorca reveal.

No, Eric. I find that ridiculous. Tons of fantasy is inspirational. Just because it’s not real doesn’t make it any less so. Trek was always a fiction. It held up a world we might hope to achieve. Does it really matter that atrocities they claimed took place never did in reality? Maybe it does to you but I doubt it does for most.

Yeah, I’d agree there is a problem if one can no longer be inspired by the positive aspects a show presents just because real events don’t follow how that fictional show presented them to go.

Well, this show is basically doing what JJ did. And Kurtzman was one of the writers who did it. So SNW is stealing from Kurtzman, essentially.

This doesn’t feel like a TOS story to me at all. There were two in the first season that felt like it was something TOS might have done. (and for sure would have done them better) But for the most part this show feels more like everything else Secret Hideout has made far more than anything TOS might have done. TNG had tons of episodes that felt like they would have worked with TOS, BTW.

Exactly. They are essentially creating a new timeline. Now I will say it is a bit different from the Kelvin universe since it does still happen in the Prime Universe, but it now gives them the freedom to change whatever they want. You can’t with a straight face say you can somehow change 30 years of history over the Eugenics War but then everything else stays the same.

But I do suspect unlike the KU, they will try and stick to the original canon as much as possible because they know if they go too far off the deep in, many fans will just consider it non canon to the Prime universe. But I know, you and others already think they have veered too far from the Prime timeline. I’m not really there yet but I won’t be shocked if that ends up being the case by the end of this season.

That’s yet another thing. I don’t recall hearing over the years about Trek fans annoyed the Eugenics wars never happened. If anything it’s just a bit of a laugh. But seems to me fans accept Trek history as different from reality. Because we know it’s fiction.

This is Goldsman deciding he needed to fix something that was never broken. Which is why I still cling to my theory that he only did this because he and his staff are so creatively bankrupt that they are incapable of writing stories that hold to the rules that Trek created for that time frame. It has nothing to do with GR’s vision or any other such hogwash. It’s only so he can lamely cover his a$$.

That’s as good an explanation as any.

Which exactly why going forward is always a better idea than going backwards IMO. And for me it will always be more exciting to get something completely new versus just ‘filling in’ to stuff we already know like a lot of prequels do. The whole Khan thing being the perfect example. Sigh

We allll understand it’s not real, but we can still feel immersed in that world just the same. And note to Goldsman, if you are making your universe with great stories, strong characters and solid writing, they can still feel just as credible in that universe even if it doesn’t stack up to ours. And most people watch Star Trek for the possibilities, not for its ‘reality’ since very little of Star Trek has anything to do with reality.

No argument here.

Which is why I think this was their attempt to correct THEIR show. Not Trek in general.

Yeah… They are just opening yet another can of worms. They put themselves in the terrible position that the more early 21st century Trek predictions that don’t come the more they are going to have to “fix” their shows. What is more likely is this is a pathetic attempt to explain why their show is so amazingly out of sync with what came later. and they used a device Kurtzman already used to create a different Trek reboot, too.

So sad.

Video of riots in 2020-1 doesn’t confirm anything in Trek history. If they really wanted to show an honest to goodness coup they could have shown video from Myanmar in Feb of ’21.

There is truth there. But they are just doing basically what Kurtzman & Orci did to create the KU. Alter the time line to create their own reboot show.

I still don’t know if this was their intent all along or if they realized how badly they screwed up and this was their attempt to make it all work. Well, their explanation essentially says their shows are all reboots more than they say ‘this is how we fixed things’.

That’s just another part of why these writers are terrible. I was wondering how they crossed the border. Did they walk through a wilderness? All in a couple of days? With a few bucks they made from chess? Did they bribe customs agents? So many many issues with the episode they made only so their version can be the dominant one.

True. But in this case, the point was to make their version the “real” version. They have ignored so much of TOS that they felt they needed to just go and say “ours is the prime time line now”.

I don’t think this group is capable of doing what you are suggesting. I really don’t.

To be fair when you go forward there are fewer restrictions on your show. No need to be concerned with what is coming in the future. Only what happened in the past.

How dare you ask Secret Hideout to “be creative”!

According to them, they understand Trek better than anyone and making the best Trek ever made!

Yeah… I have the same Gorn problem. And both things really are mutually exclusive. Just because our reality doesn’t match Trek’s history doesn’t mean they get to more the first Gorn encounter as they see fit.

Unless, of course, they want to call it a REBOOT.

I won’t go so far as to say the prime timeline is “gone”. It’s still there waiting for competent writers and producers to go back there.

If writers & producers are incapable of operating in that world with those rules or feel the need to alter the existing prime universe to match their version then either say up front “this is our version of Pike’s Enterprise.” Or, “This is our version of a star ship some decade before TOS and is not a part of that universe.” Or, this is our version of Picard as an old man.” Or best yet, everything our production company makes is its own thing and any connection to any Star Trek that came before is pure coincidence. We aren’t trying to make any of it match.”

When I watched as a kid I knew it was a fake future. But it was still a positive one. One that was not ruined by the activities in “Assignment: Earth”. And it still wasn’t ruined when 1992 came and went with no Khan. Trek history was still Trek history and the inspirational and positive aspects of it still existed even when our real time passed stuff that Trek mentioned. Probably the biggest negative to our aspirational future came in the TNG pilot when they spoke about “post atomic horrors.” Which I HATED. One of the things I loved about Trek, especially in the 70’s when nearly all sci-fi revolved around nuclear annihilation was it it was probably the only sci-fi out there that did NOT predict nuclear holocaust. Which I never believed would happen, myself. I found that very positive. Then TNG had to go and ruin that right off the bat.

Sorry… I got off track at bit from my original comment. Which was, fiction set in our future don’t need to match our REAL future to be effective.

Okay, so thematically they’re aware of Trek-the-franchise, but not literally? I’ve seen all three seasons and I don’t remember them making any kind of reference to the show as a show. I admit I could have missed it.

So then why waste time trying to match the show to our reality?

And that’s why I don’t buy anything this doorknob says about his show working within Trek canon. I honesty don’t know if he is just so high on his own fluctuance that he really believes this stuff or if he is fully aware his show screwed up so very badly that he had to make this stuff up in a weak attempt to cover up is own incompetence.

No, there is no reason they can’t keep the aspirational theme and keep all of the fictitious Trek history where it was. None. In fact, one could argue that since in reality there was no Khan is aspirational in and of itself. Things need not match our reality to be aspirational. The character Superman is aspirational. But he’s not real, either.

So, no. What he says I really can’t believe he truly buys. I think he’s desperately trying to make his pathetic mistakes work within the realm of the Trek sandbox.

Or, just call it a “reboot” and be done with it.

Simple.

Clean.

Yep. If there is a future “temporal agency” designed to keep things right and make sure time incursions don’t deviate history too much they would have certainly gone back and fixed it so Khan rises to power in the ’90’s.

This is all BS to explain away why their foolish takes on Trek are better.

He doesn’t understand anything. Trek is not real! It’s a FICTION! He hasn’t “corrected” anything. He changed Trek so is warped interpretation of it works better.

Good lord… This article makes things way worse than anyone could have possibly thought.

If he REALLY felt that humanity was supposed to just get “better” and be “hopeful” then he should eliminate any future wars completely.

The proper description of this clown includes words that aren’t accepted here.

What horrible news to hear today.

Of course he updated the look for TMP. They had millions of dollars more at their disposal to update sets, special effects, make up, and anything else. They also had to compete against 2001 and Star Wars. I believe GR himself said if they had the money and time, the tv Klingons would’ve looked different, and more in line with the movie.

Personally, I found the in-universe explanation for the Klingon look was silly. I think most of us understood with more money, and advances in makeup, updating the look was a logical step. Half the time it’s the writers complicating things, not the fans.

The characters in Lower Decks are pretty clearly Star Trek fans (one of the things I don’t like about the show, tbh.)

When do they bring this up in LD?

All this talk of “Roddenberry’s Vision” makes me chuckle because said vision was TNG Season 1… and isn’t that derided as being one of the work Trek seasons ever made?

The fact that La’an is a Noonien-Soong is so inessential to the character (outside of this week’s episode) that it really reinforces my belief that her being so is simply pointless fan service. They could have really made it work in last season’s “Ghosts of Illyria”. But outside of being pissed at Una for one scene, they did absolutely nothing with it.

As it stands, La’an is the only character on the show I care a whit about, but she’s lumbered with this needless legacy connection that is just tired at this point.

For my part, I feel the same as Goldsman: I have always seen Trek as being intended to be one possible future for us, and many of the inaccuracies that have come to pass over the years have been forming cracks in that perception. I have been able to remedy this issue through theorycrafting and headcanon, but it’s refreshing to have an official correction for a change. And I know that I’m far from alone in this regard. Most of my peers simply don’t bother to partake in public discourse because toxic behaviors have overrun said discourse to the point that it feels like talking to a brick wall that’s hell-bent on making you feel awful just for daring to have a different opinion.

But for those of you who preferred things as they were, that’s fine too! What’s not fine are all the condescending attacks over something this petty, especially when Trek is no stranger to retcons. Even leaving out the complexities of Enterprise‘s Temporal Cold War, are we just going to conveniently ignore when DS9 retconned Trouble with Tribbles? Or its addition of the Bell Riots? When Voyager retconned The Undiscovered Country? Or when “Future’s End” wrote the Soviet Union’s collapse into the timeline despite both TOS and TNG establishing that it continued to exist well into the future? And when that very same episode, taking place in 1996, made no mention of the Eugenics Wars despite its chronological proximity? And *again* with this episode establishing that the pilfered 29th century technology was used to spark a technological revolution starting with the invention of the isograted circuit? And let’s not forget when Gene Roddenberry himself retconned the invention of the Warp Drive and subsequent first contact to take place later in the 21st century all the way back in TNG: “Encounter at Farpoint”, alongside him suddenly giving Klingons cranial ridges in TMP. Like it or not, the genie was uncorked from the lamp ages ago, and there’s absolutely no valid reason why current writers can’t use it in the exact same way their predecessors did.

Instead, why not dabble in some theorycrafting of your own to help repair your immersion? Goldsman isn’t going to come and break down your door over believing that SNW takes place in an alternate quantum reality, a la TNG: “Parallels”. And it would still be prime reality via technicality, too.

Now, as for the episode itself… I liked it! It was a lot of fun, even though it did require a larger dosage of suspension of disbelief than usual. I especially liked how Kirk’s chess hustling actually sets up Wrath of Khan later down the line, with Kirk exploiting Khan’s two-dimensional thinking.
It may be a little weird to those of us in America, but I’ve heard from numerous Canadian citizens that their hotels usually do accept cash payment, rather than requiring a credit card as they would here. That border crossing is still problematic, though…

Give it some time…more will get there. ;)

I think everyone can agree it’s good to make the show feel connected and aspirational to our world, but I don’t know how moving a story about supermen taking over the planet does that?? It’s just a very odd thing to connect it to.

And then what’s really head scratching about it is he says he wanted to move the event forward to keep up with our reality BUT this is also the same guy who created a manned mission to Jupiter in Picard season 2 that isn’t anywhere close to our reality but suppose to believe is happening a year from now.

So let me get this straight, he wanted to move the Eugenics War because it dates the show too much due to it’s time placement. But then he creates another event that dates the show literally the year it was introduced in? So what are we missing???? Unless people are convinced NASA is going to start flying people to Jupiter by next year or something it already feels out of place to our world.

And I get the Eugenics War is a well known event and has a wider impact on canon. But this is why people get frustrated because no one is forcing anyone to do these things but then they still break their own rules and story consistency. So in another 5-10 years, should we expect someone to retcon that flight or just tell us Picard somehow got the date wrong too because he’s super old and time travel wrecks havoc on the brain.

Dude, I’ve been bringing up the eugenics wars timeline issue for years on this site and other fans have agreed with me on this issue… Again going back years, so way before this ep. And I also recall major discussions about this when Star Trek into darkness came out, for obvious reasons

Goldsman is going to retcon that too in episode 5. ;)

Dude, GR himself updated the Star Trek science fiction future himself in TMP. TMP Trek universe looks vastly different than TOS Trek universe. He updated the ships, the aliens l, starfleet, the technology, and pretty much everything we saw on screen. And not only that, in the next generation, he changed the warp factors, with work 10 being a new maximum.

GR would be the last person to gripe about updating in the timeline for events to keep it consistent with our current set of events and recent past. It has nothing to do with him claiming to predict perfectly future events (of course he wasn’t doing that and of course I wasn’t suggesting that), but it certainly has to do with making common sense updates to the timeline so that it can still be a potential science fiction future for all of us today.

That’s what you and others don’t seem to be understanding. It’s not really all that complicated and it’s not really that big of a deal. You all need to chill out and relax…It’s going to be okay, lol