[Picard news (with episode 1 spoilers) starts at 06:46 / Episode 2 review starts at 28:50]
Anthony and Laurie kick off the podcast with an update on the timing of Star Trek: Discovery season 5 and the latest award nominations for Strange New Worlds. They discuss some of the new comics coming out, the arrival of season 2 of Gates McFadden’s podcast, and all the latest Picard news, rounding up the latest from The New York Times, Tony’s purple carpet interviews, and social media. After that, they dig in to their review of Star Trek: Picard season 3 episode 2, “Disengage.” They wrap things up with a funny (doctored) Picard trailer and a rousing endorsement of the SyFy Sistas podcast.
Links:
‘Star Trek: Discovery’ Season 5 May Be Coming Soon, According To Wilson Cruz [updated]
Tweet from Discovery showrunner Michelle Paradise
‘Star Trek: Strange New Worlds’ Nominated For 2 Critics Choice Super Awards
Review: ‘Strange New Worlds – The High Country’ Delivers A High-Stakes Star Trek Adventure
First Look At May Star Trek Comics Reveals Epic Trek Era-Spanning Crossover Annual Issue
‘Star Trek: The Next Generation’ Movie Collection On 4K Blu-ray Coming In April
Artist Steffi Hochriegl on Twitter
Gates McFadden’s InvestiGates podcast
William Shatner’s documentary at SXSW
Researcher Jörg Hillebrand on Twitter
Brent Spiner Talks ‘Star Trek: Picard’ Roles And Why He’s Still Okay With Data Dying In ‘Nemesis’
Interview: Patrick Stewart On The Themes Of ‘Star Trek: Picard’ Season 3
Interview: Titan Bridge Crew Cast Talks Character Backstories And On-Set Fun With Jonathan Frakes
Interview: Wil Wheaton On ‘Star Trek: Picard’ Season 3 And Outrageous ‘Lower Decks’ Wesley Pitches
Watch: New ‘Star Trek: Picard’ Season 3 Preview Features Geordi, Worf, Troi, Lore And More
Watch ‘Star Trek: The Next Generation’ Cast Reminisce About The Old Days, Talk ‘Picard’ Season 3
Fleet Admiral Kirsten Clancy (Ann Magnuson)
Star Trek: The Next Generation‘s “Attached”
All Access (And Podcast Friends) Look Back At Star Trek In 2022 And Preview 2023 (with Subrina from the SyFy Sistas)
SyFy Sistas Shuttle Pod Takeover: Black Representation In Star Trek Cinema
Trekbits:
Tony: Star Trek: Picard | Season 3 Final Final Epic Trailer (Auralnauts Official)
Laurie: SyFy Sistas podcast
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I listened to this podcast and I’m still shaking my head in disbelief at Laurie’s non-analysis, and the way her comments assume we don’t recall any of her other opinions over the past few years. All the fan service in Picard S3 is necessary and appropriate, but SNW is the show with too much nostalgia?
Right.
So, people aren’t allowed to change their minds on a topic?
It didn’t feel like fan service to me, what can I say? It feels organic to Picard, it feels unnecessary on SNW. Picard is, no matter what they say, a reunion of sorts and about familiar characters played by the same actors who originated the roles, it’s very much about their history together. SNW has a great opportunity to tell fresh, new stories as they reinvent characters and mix them with new ones, and they keep dipping back into old stories and aliens, which is especially jarring when it’s about events that technically happen later in the timeline. They did an entire episode based on a TOS episode, for example. They have all the right ingredients and I wish they wouldn’t rely on nostalgia. Picard is a completely different animal. They’re very different shows in terms of setting and theme.
Whoa whoa. I saw the SNW episode as powerful, you had a man (Pike) coming to grips with accepting his own painful death also playing on the theme that things sometimes have to happen for a reason. Also a theme that the universe isn’t black and white, a peaceful man today might be the wrong man tomorrow in some situations (Kirk prevented war by being more aggressive in Balance and Terror while Edith Keiler lead to a German victory in WW2 for instance). That’s powerful counter intuitive stuff.
That to me is time travel done right with a timeline restored.
None of that could have been done easily without the fan service.
This is vs. Picard where robo-Picard is suddenly just Picard again, is best buddies with characters he ditched for 20 years, has a son to make the story work even though it makes no sense (Picard had a relationship with someone under his command and then Crusher proceeded to ditch him and not tell him she had a son, what?!) , here is an Ent-F and a Voyager-J or something for the hell of it, oh and the Titan looks like something out of TMP while the TNG Titan is gone yet the computer still has Riker’s jazz on it when it must be a new ship, etc. That’s fan service to me where you are just ramming stuff together regardless if it fits (but I accept it because we are getting a TOS motion picture arc complete with some Balance of Terror starship combat strategy with a tractor beam, so thumbs up). TNG fans I think just accept it because “OMG!!! IT’S WORF!!!! (who btw, ignore all that cool DS9 diplomat stuff just like in Insurrection and Nemesis); though I love him in Starfleet intelligence so i too am cool with that.
I agree. They took a major component unique to SNW – Pike dealing with his fate – and placed it inside a classic TOS episode. Like many others, I thoroughly enjoyed the result, but if Pike’s situation wasn’t emphasized and brilliantly written and acted throughout the episode, then it might have seemed a bit heavy handed with the fan service.
I found the episode to be a mixed-bag, with the Pike stuff being brilliant, but the “Balance of Terror” riffs inferior to the original in just about every instance.
I found their version of BOT vastly superior.
Sure, okay. We’ll see if this version is so well regarded, five decades from now.
In five decades i’ll let you know. I assume you’ll still be around?
He and I will presumably have ascended to a higher plane where respect for the original BoT (even with the phaser/torp stuff and Nimoy almost crashing into the corridor wall) is rewarded in a way like Sean on RESCUE ME imagined: any thing you might wish for, you’re immediately quenched.
It’s a particular pity that Shatner is just about at his best in BoT, because it really points up the yawning chasm between him at the top of his game and New Guy seeming more like Charlie Evans than JTK. There was some good stuff in that SNW, but I really think the show only truly nailed it with the show about the young kid on the planet episode a few weeks earlier; still, parsecs ahead of whatever was in second place this century — at least until a few eps from now on PICARD.
This is Science Fiction and I read so many great novels about extending life through artificial means such as cloning, synthetic life etc, it is great sci fi. The criticism I have is it isn’t explored enough.First up he is not a robot it is Picard’s memories and personality transferred into an artificial body so in essence it is actually Picard. This happened in an early season 2 episode ‘The Shizoid Man’, where Dr Ira Graves transferred his memories and personality in Data, exactly the same thing that happened to Picard. And yes it was actually Ira Graves when he was in Data’s body.
Is it a bit stupid well yes but then all of Star Trek is a bit stupid then, time travel, Q it is all a bit silly really . Why is an omnipotent being acceptable but extending life through synthetic bodies not or even multiplying balls of fluff. Funny how people think that one thing is stupid and the rest of Star trek isn’t. Actually exploring sci fi themes is what I find interesting not some of the older shows that felt very soap opera like at times.
Totally agree! I am one of the few who didn’t hate S2 (I didn’t love it either by any stretch) but my biggest gripe was that it did absolutely nothing with a potentially fascinating idea.
I really was hoping, ahead of the season, that the theme of the story would be Picard assessing his new existence. The season could have delved into what it means to be human, and with Q as a guide, it could have been an interesting exploration of identity, with plenty of social allegory too. You could even still have woven in the story about his childhood…
Instead, I fear they reacted to outside pressure to ignore that plot point because it didn’t go over well with fans.
It felt a lot like the “coming to grips with accepting one’s fate” concept was the excuse they used to do a remix of “Balance of Terror” because remixing “Balance of Terror” was a cool idea to them. As much as I LIKE Pike’s season arc being knowing his fate, I think every action he took until the finale undermined the power of the sacrifice suggested all the way back in Discovery. He was depressed, fighting against it, and convinced by his first officer that he should try to wriggle out of it. And that was *the only* way the idea was examined until the finale, when he was simply shown, as you say, that that’s the way it had to be. We don’t get him doing stuff like, “Well, since I know I can’t die on this mission, I’ll lead the landing party, etc.” we just get a premiere and a finale that deals with his being tortured by his fate and in between he’s checking out kids on the internet to see if he can move them around like chess pieces to get him out of his future. And it’s a bummer, too, because Pike is equating (by way of how the show portrays it) that being confined to that chair is a fate worse than death. Not necessarily ableist, but likely a writer blindspot about how that might look to some of the audience.
These things are necessary to the plot of PIC S3?
Use of TWOK/TSFS title fontsUse of TMP era ship designUse of Carol-David plotUse of TSFS bar plot with Starfleet spy watchingUse of all prior musicReprise of Sulu’s daughter at helmUse of scarab-style ship (Ferengi Marauder, Shinzon’s ship, and Nero’s Narada)Use of Chirstopher Plummer’s daughterUse of Kruge’s bridgeUse of Chang’s spinning chairUse of the bitter/arrogant Captain tropeUse of the ‘Sisko hates Picard’ trope – because rival Captain doesn’t understand the fundamentals of trauma and empathy.I didn’t even pause to look anything up, this just came out on autopilot–because the show is so slavishly nostalgic and forcefully unoriginal.
A guy with trauma doesn’t understand trauma. Never ever speak to people with trauma if you’re gonna to spew this kind of shit.
I apologize for the cursing. Not able to edit it so I can’t edit it out and put the apology for it there.
It’s well deserved.
Respectfully, Ms. Ulster, that strikes me as a rationalization, and a distinction with no real difference. An occasional callback and Easter Egg is one thing; the Picard S3 pilot was a wall-to-wall shout-out to Trek’s Greatest Hits, including many which had nothing to do with the TNG crew.
To each their own. Deciding what is and what isn’t fan service is in the eye of the beholder. I’m not rationalizing, I have no reason to. I am only saying what I think.
Fair enough. Again, no disrespect intended. I’m a fan, and appreciate what you do.
Thank you for that. These are the things Star Trek fans can debate forever… and we will!
I think the main trouble with SNW is that it is carrying and resolving baggage from Discovery. Pike being clued into his own demise was interesting, because he knows what we know, but the fact that we needed to acknowledge it to begin with felt like unnecessary fan service. As for your feelings about the Gorn, I understand them but am not sure I share them. We’ll see how I feel after Season 2.
Yeah, being tied so closely to Discovery has been a millstone around its neck, but it’s soared in spite of it, and done better with DSC’s leftovers than I ever would have expected.
Hoping that if we get a PIC spin-off, it’s episodic like SNW, which is still the best Trek since DS9’s fourth or fifth season.
The difference is Picard S3 is a nostalgic reunion and SNW is a brand new show.
Yeah, this.
LOL no, Picard is Season 3 of a show that purports to be an original series in the continuity of the show. It is not the Star Trek Holiday Special. You’re doubling down on my original thought–that there is no analysis or thought given–just expressing feelings. Combined iwth Anthony’s repeated reference to his conversations with Matalas, it really gives the impression of Access Journalism. You’ve boxed yourselves out of criticism by making friends with the showrunner. We already lost Inglorious Treksperts to this–please don’t surrender Trekmovie.
Well, new from a certain point of view. It is still picking up on a pilot made in 1964 and making use of all sorts of familiar things that don’t need to be there.
A brand new Star Trek series would be about the USS (pick any other inspirational/exploratory sounding name) with a captain and crew we’ve never heard of, going on adventures where names like Khan, Gorn and Sybok are never mentioned, in an era that’s unfamiliar, much like with Discovery. But of course that won’t happen as long as there’s nostalgic gold in them thar hills to mine in things like TOS and TNG. That’s a big part of the business.
And both are awesome, with well executed fan service. Fine stuff!
The whole notion of “fan service” is silly anyway. There is nothing wrong with including elements designed to make fans happy. Nothing at all.
Thanks, as always, Laurie and Tony, for the interesting discussion. It was interesting even though there are so many unknowns, as you noted.
I wanted to pause a bit on Jack Crusher “Jr.” It seems to me that there’s something not quite straightforward about him simply being the secret love child of Beverly and Picard. Sure, Riker has leapt to that conclusion, but that doesn’t mean he’s correct. Maybe the reason for all the non-verbal communication between Beverly and Picard is NOT because Picard is learning he had a son, but that something else actually happened that he knew was a possibility but didn’t know for sure. Or didn’t know that Beverly went ahead with it. Could this “weirdness” about “Jack Crusher” be the reason why Vadik wants him alive? Is he the result of some genetic experiment that has made him very valuable genomically? Or some other technological or sci-fi uniqueness? It at least seems that there is more about his origins than meets the eye. Or so it seems to me.
Glad you enjoyed the podcast. Going forward I can’t comment on theories anymore because I watched ahead! D’oh!
Well, based on the latest interviews with Ed Speleers in the newest article on the site, it seems my speculations were misplaced. But … there’s still something nagging me about this. Time will tell.
Well, as someone who could never believe 24 year old Tom Welling as 14 year old Clark Kent, and therefore never got into Smallville, 35 looking 40 Ed Speleers attempting very early 20s is all the worse for my UHD OLED projection.
British ‘boyish looks’ don’t actually look younger. Just saying.
Great acting can cover that for the odd flashback scene but not an entire show. Especially, when Speleers is being contrasted against genuinely younger looking actors like Ashely Sharpe Chestnut or Mica Burton.
Maybe the EPs can come up with a retcon to cover it.
Or, perhaps Speleers is fudging in the interview. I’m still hopeful for a timey wimey explanation.
I enjoy that this podcast tends to be pretty positive across the different shows.
In talking about fan service, I didn’t like some of the fan service (remaking a TOS episode, the Gorn reboot, having any Kirks show up) in SNW, and I don’t like a lot of the fan service I’ve seen in season 3 episodes 1 and 2 of Picard. I liked most of Seasons 1 and 2 of Picard, but Season 3 has been a downgrade for me so far. TNG and the subsequent movies did a terrible job in writing most of their female characters, but I’m not seeing an uptick in remedying that in the first two episodes.
I think many people are also sweeping a huge amount of misogyny and racism and hypocrisy under the rug in talking about how the “haters” are embracing season 3 of Picard. If Shaw was a female captain/admiral butting heads with Picard, if Picard had a surprise “daughter/sister”, if Elnor had come in to save Raffi with his sword and cut off someone’s head, we’d be hearing a very different narrative from the “haters” of modern Trek.
As I’m watching Season 3 of Picard, I’m wondering why the “haters” are embracing it so much? Is it nostalgia? All the white men? While I appreciate the actors and their performances, what is novel about Season 3?
I do appreciate the shout out to the SyFy Sistas as they are one of my favorite podcasts to listen to.
I see a massive difference between Picard season 3 and the previous seasons. Season 1 had some interesting ideas but didn’t really tie things up in a way that made sense… like why were Dahj and Soji sent away and given fake identities? They never explained it. Season 2 was worse, nothing made sense to me at all. I didn’t buy that Picard didn’t have intimate relationships, I didn’t understand why Q felt that to teach PIcard he had to change the timeline to fascist Earth AND include rando associates of Picard’s and make them suffer, I didn’t know why Q tried to get Soong to kill Picard. None of it actually made sense as a story. So with season 3, we have characters we love who have evolved but are still the same people, and I’m enjoying it a great deal. (I’ve seen more episodes than have aired.)
I do agree there is a bit of a woman problem on Picard this season, though… We’ll see how it goes, I haven’t seen every episode.
I also didn’t love the beheading from Worf… lots of random killing right off the bat! (I love Worf, though.) Intrigued by the idea of Picard having a daughter instead of a son. That would have been more interesting, much as I like Ed Speleers.
Thanks for the feedback! And yes, the SyFy Sistas are awesome.
One of the things I was looking forward to was that bit of dialogue about Worf now being a pacifist, which seemed like a pretty cool idea. Apparently, that was meant to be ironic.
Yeah I thought the pacifist thing was playing into that TNG episode where Alexander came back in time to change the future.
Thanks Laurie. Yes, there are a lot of head scratchers in Season 2 especially, but I enjoyed the Seven, Raffi, Agnes, Borg Queen stories. Picard’s arc was my least favorite part of the season.
TNG came out while I was in college, and I think in many ways I’ve moved on from those characters. I tuned into Picard for Seven, and really liked most of the new characters they introduced. Seeing almost all of those characters pushed aside is frustrating. I would have loved to see Worf mentor Elnor.
I thought the Agnes/Borg Queen stuff was fascinating and a much better story than the one they told. Raffi and Seven mostly bickered, which wasn’t that exciting despite the fact that I love both characters and actors. I was actually glad we didn’t have more Elnor, as I didn’t find him that interesting. I love the TNG characters and their evolution fascinates me.Maybe that’s why you’re not enjoying season 3 so much and I am. Season 2, I just couldn’t get past the story elements that didn’t connect. Season 3, I am IN!
Glad you are enjoying it so much! I’m curious to see what’s to come.
Well, I’m a cis white male, and I don’t see much that’s new or original about Picard this season either. Of course, we’re only two episodes in. I hope to be won-over, still.
Yes, I’ll happily eat crow (or shrike) if the season evolves beyond a nostalgia fest.
Just don’t eat LIKE a shrike. (shudder)
LOL 🖖
Thank you Laurie and Tony for yet another great podcast but guys, it’s 2023… Next week I want to hear Laurie introduce herself first and then Tony… I’m joking.
There are a lot of little things that irk me in the first 2 episodes of Picard, but I think I may just be getting a little cranky in my old age because most people seem to love what I find annoying or contrived, so I’ll let it go for now…
Can we talk about this fan service thing though? I feel a new Star Trek show HAS to reference the past, to connect it to the Star Trek universe. So they’ll reference aliens we’ve seen, or characters, or bring back ships… Otherwise if everything is new how is it Star Trek? Kirk and Janeway are Starfleet legends, so of course they may come up in conversations between characters. So is the Enterprise… Maybe it’s the younger generations who appreciate older things less because they’re not part of their experience? Or maybe it’s the older generations who are too nostalgic… Sometimes it can be overdone but when it’s done right and organically it’s cathartic. An example that I found so well done is in Picard S1, when Picard walks in Starfleet headquarters, he looks up and you see a holographic projection of the Enterprise-D (with accompanying musical theme). Now that’s not fan service. It’s quite normal and expected that Enterprise-D would be exposed there. This is a legendary ship!
I guess what I’m saying here is that, for the most part, the fan service concept shouldn’t even be a thing. This is Star Trek so you’re going to see various things that you’ve been seeing in Star Trek in the past 55 years. When you eat pasta with marinara sauce, do you complain that it tastes like tomatoes?
Is it okay to praise the first season of TNG for something? Because looking back now I admire the restraint they had, for the most part, not turning it into the TOS fan service nostalgia hour. They had that one lovely scene with McCoy then did a fairly embarrassing remake of “The Naked Time,” but then it was mainly new stuff they were trying. Sure, often times they failed in that first season…
Yet, I believe that restraint paid off in later seasons with things like the Borg and the Cardassians, which perhaps we wouldn’t have had they obsessed with working iconic things like Khan, Gorn, Talosians, Harry Mudd, Tribbles, etc. into the mix again.
It can have a tomato flavor, yes, but it can theoretically be a different dish from Italy. Pizza, anyone? Ravioli? Ideally, a franchise can be a diverse menu and not variations on the same dish. Or worse, reheated leftovers.
I make Tony go first. Ha! I don’t want to go first. Also this made me laugh: “When you eat pasta with marinara sauce, do you complain that it tastes like tomatoes?” HA!
Well people complaining about fan service… They want Star Trek but you can’t have any Star Trek lore? Makes no sense… And neither would marinara sauce without tomatoes. Voilà! Point made!
I think when people complain about fan service they’re really complaining about a particular brand of corporate condescension towards the audience. Our research shows you like these specific things, let us target you with them.
When it’s done well, when it’s done slyly, when it’s done organically to the story, involving the audience to put things together, fan service can be rewarding. When it’s done blatantly, with all the charm of a commercial for a monster truck rally, then it can be grating. Like the difference between a wink and someone nudging you in the ribs with the punchline, over and over.
Sometimes they don’t do enough fan service and actually wreck the property.
Fan service when it fits the timeline and make sense = awesome.
Fan service when idoesn’t really need to be there and doesn’t really make sense = lousy.
Example Enterprise. Spock talks nuclear weapons and the Romulan war in Balance of Terror talking primitive starships on the unknown. So then you do ENT and ignore that, make it an Akiraprize with transporters that your whole prequel concept is just another bland episode of TNG.
How to save it – fan service done right – bring in the emotional Andorians having to work with the logical Vulcans with primitive humans being the middle party. It’s too bad it was too little too late!
Another example. Fan service done right: we are setting Discovery in TOS with the Klingons. Let’s show some D-6 battlecrusiers that belong facing off with Starfleet on the frontier; something you wanted to see but the budget couldn’t afford back then.
Fan service done wrong: Let’s make the Klingon ships look totally unrecognizable and use TNG era starships for the TOS Federation. Oh and the Klingons already have cloaking devices despite them not having that in TOS to absolutely no dramatic effect. Add some funky mushroom space drive too.
Sometimes they don’t do enough fan service and actually wreck the property.
Fan service when it fits the timeline and make sense = awesome.
Fan service when idoesn’t really need to be there and doesn’t really make sense = lousy.
Example Enterprise. Spock talks nuclear weapons and the Romulan war in Balance of Terror talking primitive starships on the unknown. So then you do ENT and ignore that, make it an Akiraprize with transporters that your whole prequel concept is just another bland episode of TNG.
How to save it – fan service done right – bring in the emotional Andorians having to work with the logical Vulcans with primitive humans being the middle party. It’s too bad it was too little too late!
Another example. Fan service done right: we are setting Discovery in TOS with the Klingons. Let’s show some D-6 battlecrusiers that belong facing off with Starfleet on the frontier; something you wanted to see but the budget couldn’t afford back then.
Fan service done wrong: Let’s make the Klingon ships look totally unrecognizable and use TNG era starships for the TOS Federation. Oh and the Klingons already have cloaking devices despite them not having that in TOS to absolutely no dramatic effect. Add some funky mushroom space drive too.
The best example is the Lord of the Rings and JRR Tolkien. Why is his property so awesome, because the guy worked out the whole timeline even when he did not need to and stuck to it. Every Elfish word worked out with an extensive history.
I thought Okuda did this with the Encyclopedia for Trek, but it was so ignored..
Thanks, but I’ll wait for the paperback.
Lol
I assume all those DNA references in the closing credits are hinting at upcoming plot points… And usually in the Star Trek context that means someone’s genetic code has been modified.
Where is the funny trailer? I can’t find it.
The above article has links to everything discussed in the pod. The ‘trekbits’ including trailer link are at the bottom
I just wonder if the problem of “fan service” applies to Star Trek as much as we talk about it here. Fans saved Star Trek. When it was off the air, they built the world out – fan magazines, stories, even short fan films. GR knew and grew from all that into TNG.
Now, technology has caught up with the owner of the IP.
I am sure if people still wanted Trek as short stories, novels and texts, there is no way that Paramount could stop it. Now, they demand that fan films be less than 20 minutes. Without debating each fan film, judging by our own comments here, only Prodigy and LDS take that to heart – doing what we cannot do, and taking “canon” seriously (the jokes wouldn’t land otherwise). And we seem to like them best for it.
IMHO, there has to be a lot more “new worlds” in Trek and reality based, provocative science fiction concepts… or this IP will eat it’s own, perhaps beyond redemption.
I don’t think fan service is a problem at all. I really don’t. You can in fact have building the universe more and stuff from old Trek at the same time. I know this would be a prequel so I’m expecting people to get angry with me about this, but what I would like is a show set between ENT and TOS where one of the main characters is an Andorian working for the Vulcans so we can see relations between those two species improving more (plus get more development of Andorians.) I know people will call that fan service but it also can be worldbuilding and give ENT an actual legacy beyond just having ships named after Shran.
I agree with “new worlds,” and I would add new ships and characters.
Tony/Laurie,
Laurie I agree with you on fan service vs. servicing the story. Terry is honoring what has come before but giving us a new spin on these characters. I have accepted nostalgia will be part of this ride, but like Prodigy, it doesn’t seem eye rolling.
I’m enjoying the season so far. I’m on Team Shaw. I don’t see him as risk averse. I see him as standing up to two renegades who put his ship and crew in danger. Any deaths in the coming battle is on Picard, Seven, and Riker.
Anyways, I loved that moment between Picard and Beverly on the bridge. No words had to be spoken. It was a beautiful moment. I can’t wait to see them interact with one another.
Worf is still awesome!
Tony, Insurrection is a terrific film, except the Worf pimple, HMS Pinafore, Datas floatation device, and Riker shaving in the bathtub when clearly he’s already shaved.
LLAP!
Totally agree with you Kevin B on the season so far. I’m having a great time and just hope they can keep it going across the rest of the season.